[303rd-Talk] 303rd-Talk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3
Lon Cassino
lon.cassino at att.net
Wed Jan 21 11:15:54 MST 2009
I have a similar question,
I am trying to find out if any of my father's crew members are still among
us, my dad flew from 1-45 to 5-45 out of Molesworth and flew with Lt. Cyril
Tilsen as a toggolier and waist gunner. Hew flew on several B-17G's
including, Thunder bird,Old Black Majic, Sweet LaRonda, Forget Me Not Ollie,
Miss Lace, Lady Beth and Blues In Night.
His crew members were LT. Tilsen, 2Lt. Don Bager, 2LT. James McDowell Jr.,
2Lt Casmir Bielski, Tsgt. Sherrod Driggers jr., Ssgt. Isaac Proctor, Sggt
Arnold Mawdsley, Sgt. William hendron.
My dad made it through 26 mission's, many over Germany and into Berlin.
Sadly, my dad, my hero,. passed on in 1996 and I am trying to keep his
flying time and service for the rest of my family at hand to see the
sacrifices they all made for us all.
My Dad is Ssgt.Julian R. Cassino.
My email address is Lon.Cassino at att.net
Thanks,
Lon Cassino
Lon.Cassino at att.net
Conifer, Colorado 80433
-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: B-17 gross weight (Gary Moncur)
2. BORDELON CREW (ms418 at earthlink.net)
3. Forwarded Nose art question (Bill Jones)
4. on leave (ms418 at earthlink.net)
5. Re: Forwarded Nose art question (Bob Van Pelt)
6. Re: B-17 gross weight (jhelms2196 at aol.com)
7. Re: BORDELON CREW (Gary Moncur)
8. Nose art (Maurice Paulk)
9. Re: BORDELON CREW (kurt timmerman)
10. Newcomer with questions (Gary Pett)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:02:38 -0700
From: Gary Moncur <glm at 303rdBG.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 gross weight
To: bvp6565 at yahoo.com, 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum
<303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <4972395E.6010006 at 303rdBG.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Bob,
"I'll Be Around" is still there. I've never visited that musem, but my
brother was there just a month ago and told me about that plane.
Someday we'll visit.
Gary
*Gary L. Moncur*
303rd Bomb Group (H) Historian
www.303rdBG.com
Bob Van Pelt wrote:
> Is "I'll Be Around," a B-17G painted out in 390th markings, still in the
hangar of the 390th Bomb Group Museum at Pima? Beautiful bird!! I had my
picture taken in the cockpit a few years ago.
> Bob Van Pelt
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:25:57 -0600
From: "ms418 at earthlink.net" <ms418 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] BORDELON CREW
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <380-22009122012557687 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
I am trying to find out if any of my dad's crew are still with us. His name
was Berton Bordelon and he was a pilot in the 360th. His crew was made up
of:
Donald Adams Ted Couch
Forrest Barker Fredrick Cromwell
Charles Coons Joseph Fontana
John Cottrell Joseph Harrington
Harry Patterson Kenneth Nebhut (for 1 mission only)
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Marlene Studley
Louisiana
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:30:40 -0500
From: "Bill Jones" <wejones at eskerridge.com>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Forwarded Nose art question
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <4975A7D0.15932.C40E7D at localhost>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Resending this, because the list seems to have killed my first attempt.
I just received a question from Gerald Potts that I thought might be
answered here, so I'm including the message below. The list does not
allow attachments, so the photo he mentions can be viewed at:
http://www.303rdbg.com/303rd-talk/303rd-talk-photos/Red-Ass-Logo.jpg
I have responded to him with my personal opinion (that based on other
nose art examples, I doubt that there was any policy), and I'm inviting
him to discuss the question on the list, but I'll forward any responses
back to him if he doesn't.
Message:
********************************************************************
From: Gerald Potts <#############> {I've deleted his email address}
To: <wejones at megalink.net>
Subject: B-17's
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:01:22 -0800
Dear Bill:
My Uncle was a waist gunner on a 17 during the war. He was part of
Pharis Brinkley's crew with the 360th flying out of Molesworth England.
One of the planes he flew on was "Red Ass," (before it was lost) but
he flew most of his missions in "Satan's Workshop." His name was Guy
Lance. In recent years I've become very interested in what he did
during the war and I've had a very good time on the 303rd web page.
I'm hoping you can answer this question, albeit not an important one.
The nose art for Red Ass is a donkey kicking his feet backward, with an
explosion where his feet are kicking. Under the donkey there are two
letters in morse code. The first letter is "R" and the second is "A,"
no doubt meaning "Red Ass." My question is, did the military have a
policy about what they perceived in those days as profanity, not being
allowed on the noses of their aircraft? Or is it possible the artist
for this logo was just being creative?
Thank You,
Gerald Potts.
I copied the logo from the nose of a bomber and have included it here.
I cleaned it up in photoshop 5, as I had to remove the planes windows
and color inconsistencies. There are two attachments, both the same
picture. The first can be opened with Adobe Photoshop and the second
can be viewed with almost any program as it is in a Jpeg format.
Thank You Again.
***************************************************************
Bill Jones N3JLQ
Sweden Maine
wejones at megalink.net
http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:11:18 -0600
From: "ms418 at earthlink.net" <ms418 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] on leave
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com, "glm" <glm at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <380-220091220181118671 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
My dad was a member of the 360th and I have some of his letters back home.
He mentions he and his crew being given a week's leave to Bournemouth where
they stayed at Red Cross Club that had been a hotel. Does anyone know any
specifics about that place or any pubs etc. that he might have visited while
on leave from Molesworth.
Thanks,
Marlene Studley
Daughter of Capt. Berton Bordelon, Pilot
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:10:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Van Pelt <bvp6565 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Forwarded Nose art question
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <254563.2312.qm at web50801.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I have studied 8th AF nose art of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Divsions for a number
of years and there was no formal policy that I have seen from High Wycombe
down to Division or Wing. However, at the Group level, the Commanding CO
had the final word. With so many other important tasks at hand, most Groups
were free to paint nose art as the artist saw fit, even semi-pornographic
types of art, or at least pornographic art in the sense of the 1940s.
Society didn't take a nose dive until much later and most of the bomber boys
had morals and ethics. But some of the nose art could be considered lewd.
I have read where Groups who had the liberty of painting their planes as
they saw fit were countermanded when a new CO arrived and some nose art was
erased and replaced with something more in line with the CO's wishes.
I also think the pilots had good sense and were afraid of painting nose art
that might be really offensive. They would be held responsible, as well as
the artist.
When Murder Inc. was shot down, a 351st BG B-!7 out of Polebroke, on 26
November 1943, Ken Williams was displayed in his flight jacket in
periodicals all over Reich, SHAEF took another look at nose art, but I have
found nothing to suggest a policy was handed down. I did find one memo
asking Group Commanders insure nose art could not be used by Hitler's
propaganda machine if an a/c was lost.
Crews were damn proud of their nose art and it is reflected in the art
itself. I have stats somewhere that tell what percentage of nose art was of
the female form versus anything else and the figure is above 50%. (Don't
have access to my books here.)
Hope this helps.
Bob
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, Bill Jones <wejones at eskerridge.com> wrote:
> From: Bill Jones <wejones at eskerridge.com>
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Forwarded Nose art question
> To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
> Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 9:30 AM
> Resending this, because the list seems to have killed my
> first attempt.
>
>
> I just received a question from Gerald Potts that I thought
> might be
> answered here, so I'm including the message below. The
> list does not
> allow attachments, so the photo he mentions can be viewed
> at:
> http://www.303rdbg.com/303rd-talk/303rd-talk-photos/Red-Ass-Logo.jpg
>
> I have responded to him with my personal opinion (that
> based on other
> nose art examples, I doubt that there was any policy), and
> I'm inviting
> him to discuss the question on the list, but I'll
> forward any responses
> back to him if he doesn't.
>
> Message:
> ********************************************************************
> From: Gerald Potts <#############> {I've deleted
> his email address}
> To: <wejones at megalink.net>
> Subject: B-17's
> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:01:22 -0800
>
> Dear Bill:
>
> My Uncle was a waist gunner on a 17 during the war. He was
> part of
> Pharis Brinkley's crew with the 360th flying out of
> Molesworth England.
> One of the planes he flew on was "Red Ass,"
> (before it was lost) but
> he flew most of his missions in "Satan's
> Workshop." His name was Guy
> Lance. In recent years I've become very interested in
> what he did
> during the war and I've had a very good time on the
> 303rd web page.
> I'm hoping you can answer this question, albeit not an
> important one.
> The nose art for Red Ass is a donkey kicking his feet
> backward, with an
> explosion where his feet are kicking. Under the donkey
> there are two
> letters in morse code. The first letter is "R"
> and the second is "A,"
> no doubt meaning "Red Ass." My question is, did
> the military have a
> policy about what they perceived in those days as
> profanity, not being
> allowed on the noses of their aircraft? Or is it possible
> the artist
> for this logo was just being creative?
>
> Thank You,
>
> Gerald Potts.
>
> I copied the logo from the nose of a bomber and have
> included it here.
> I cleaned it up in photoshop 5, as I had to remove the
> planes windows
> and color inconsistencies. There are two attachments, both
> the same
> picture. The first can be opened with Adobe Photoshop and
> the second
> can be viewed with almost any program as it is in a Jpeg
> format.
>
> Thank You Again.
> ***************************************************************
>
>
> Bill Jones N3JLQ
> Sweden Maine
> wejones at megalink.net
> http://www.megalink.net/~wejones
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com
> http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:14:56 -0500
From: jhelms2196 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] B-17 gross weight
To: kvfly at yahoo.com, 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <8CB494A83D35E5C-1564-13FA at WEBMAIL-MC04.sysops.aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I hope this helps.
B-17G Specifications
First flight:
July 28, 1935 (prototype)
Model number:
299
Classification:
Bomber
Span:
103 feet 9 inches
Length:
74 feet 9 inches
Gross weight:
65,000 pounds
Top speed:
287 mph
Cruising speed:
150 mph
Range (max.):
3,750 miles
Ceiling:
35,600 feet
Power:
Four 1,200-horsepower Wright R-1820-97 engines
Accommodation:
2 pilots, bombardier, radio-operator, 5 gunners
Armament:
11 to 13 machine guns, 9,600-pound bomb load
John R. Helms ( son of Major John Helms,? Molesworth 1944)
Florence, MS 39073
-----Original Message-----
From: gene mccutchan <kvfly at yahoo.com>
To: 303rd <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 8:27 pm
Subject: [303rd-Talk] B-17 gross weight
At the Pima Air Museum today while looking over the airplanes one person
asked
me what the gross weight of a B-17 was on take off.
Question, with 2700 gsls fuel and full bomb load, what was the gross weight.
Thanks.
_______________________________________________
303rd-Talk mailing list
303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com
http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:52:31 -0700
From: Gary Moncur <glm at 303rdBG.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BORDELON CREW
To: ms418 at earthlink.net, 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum
<303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <4976479F.40907 at 303rdBG.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Marlene,
Here's a couple for you. Hopefully, they are still in good health.
Make some phone calls! It will be a real treat.
Charles Coons
4 Nepture CT NW
Fort Walton Beach, FL 32548
850-862-3968
Harry Patterson
1714 Moselle Ave
Orlando, FL 32807
305-671-3235
Gary
*Gary L. Moncur*
303rd Bomb Group (H) Historian
www.303rdBG.com
ms418 at earthlink.net wrote:
> I am trying to find out if any of my dad's crew are still with us. His
name was Berton Bordelon and he was a pilot in the 360th. His crew was made
up of:
> Donald Adams Ted Couch
> Forrest Barker Fredrick Cromwell
> Charles Coons Joseph Fontana
> John Cottrell Joseph Harrington
> Harry Patterson Kenneth Nebhut (for 1 mission only)
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marlene Studley
> Louisiana
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com
> http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:06:38 -0600
From: "Maurice Paulk" <mjpmtmanenterprises at cccusa.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Nose art
To: <303rd-talk at 303rdbga.com>
Message-ID: <8E3F25622F1C4C8D9988C63AC87C92A7 at maurice3x29lmc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Since I was a Sgt in Air Corp supply and had no real contact
with the nose art. I can offer only what at the time was the
rumor that a plane by the name of Piccadilly Commando
was requested to remove the name as the British were
offended'.
I checked the 303rds nose art & did not find the name.
"Search" revealed two "hits"..Both refered to THE Piccadilly
Commandos. A web search revealed that a B-24 had that name.
Maurice J. Paulk
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:58:06 -0800 (PST)
From: kurt timmerman <kurttimmerman at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BORDELON CREW
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <606306.1451.qm at web52105.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Are there any B-17 reunions around the St. Louis Missouri area(anytime of
the year) that anyone knows of?
Thanks,
Kurt
--- On Tue, 1/20/09, Gary Moncur <glm at 303rdBG.com> wrote:
From: Gary Moncur <glm at 303rdBG.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] BORDELON CREW
To: ms418 at earthlink.net, "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum"
<303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 20, 2009, 3:52 PM
Marlene,
Here's a couple for you. Hopefully, they are still in good health.
Make some phone calls! It will be a real treat.
Charles Coons
4 Nepture CT NW
Fort Walton Beach, FL 32548
850-862-3968
Harry Patterson
1714 Moselle Ave
Orlando, FL 32807
305-671-3235
Gary
*Gary L. Moncur*
303rd Bomb Group (H) Historian
www.303rdBG.com
ms418 at earthlink.net wrote:
> I am trying to find out if any of my dad's crew are still with us.
His name was Berton Bordelon and he was a pilot in the 360th. His crew was
made
up of:
> Donald Adams Ted Couch
> Forrest Barker Fredrick Cromwell
> Charles Coons Joseph Fontana
> John Cottrell Joseph Harrington
> Harry Patterson Kenneth Nebhut (for 1 mission only)
>
> Any info would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marlene Studley
> Louisiana
> _______________________________________________
> 303rd-Talk mailing list
> 303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com
> http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
>
>
_______________________________________________
303rd-Talk mailing list
303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com
http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:41:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Gary Pett <pett at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Newcomer with questions
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <649638.77283.qm at web80202.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Please excuse the length of this message but I am a newcomer with much to
learn.
My name is Gary Pett, married for 27 years to Martha nee Garvey, whose
father Richard J. Garvey was a navigator with the 303rd BG and the 359th BS
("Harding's Crew", mostly flying on 'Daddy's Delight'). Recently we found a
box containing about 84 V-mails and other correspondence, as well as
official war documents of Lt. Garvey.
The V-mails have been transcribed, his 37 mission reports (including two
non-credit) read and summarized, the photographs placed in a special album
and .... our curiosity is really piqued!
Here are my initial questions:
1) Do any of the members have first hand recollections of or other knowledge
of Lt. Garvey's service?
2) Where are the best sources to find and scan additional photos that would
flesh out the visual history of his tour for us?
3) If we were to organize a family trip, where would the "top" places be?
Molesworth? Galvaston to see the Thunderbird? Any suggestions would be
helpful.
Thank you, Gary Pett
------------------------------
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End of 303rd-Talk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 3
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