[303rd-Talk] Tail Gun

[Jim McCoy]

Per vectorsite.net:  "A new tail gun position was designed, featuring power-boosted guns featuring a greater range of traverse; a better reflector gunsight replacing the previous ring-and-bead sight; and a larger space for the gunner, with bigger windows, that offered improved visibility and extended back from the vertical tailplane. This new gun position was called the "Cheyenne Tail", since it was designed by the United Air Lines field modification center at Cheyenne, Wyoming. It was retrofitted to many earlier B-17s at field modification centers."

(Click on: http://www.vectorsite.net/avb17_2.html for more.)

The United Air Lines buildings and hangars where the Cheyenne Tail was designed (and many built on to fresh-from-production aircraft,) are still at Cheyenne airport as Air National Guard facilities today.  The design work was managed by Ed Fairbanks of UAL who worked closely with Boeing.  The design is very similar to early B-29 tail gun installations.  Which came first was always argued by Ed.

Maybe some tail gunners could input here whether the "power-boosted" part of the design ever really worked.  The range of fire was definitely improved but maintenance manuals (I can find) don't have anything in them about "power boosting."

My Dad, Mel McCoy was the chief engineer in the 303rd's 444th Squadron Sub-Depot and was hired into UAL by Ed Fairbanks after the war. (I was born in Cheyenne in 1946.)  Both Mel and Ed stayed with UAL until their retirements.

Mel always said many F's came over to Molesworth with Cheyenne Tails and many other G mods that were often not in the records.  Only in late '44 did new airplanes come over consistently configured.  You flew what you had and no two were exactly alike until late production.

Nose guns (before the G/YB-40 chin turret) were another story entirely.  Every crew chief and engineer got hammered by aircrews to get more firepower in the nose "yesterday."  Engineers and mechanics in England tried EVERYTHING--with many different and one-off installations that sometimes even worked...

Jim McCoy

   

    

 

--- On Thu, 7/17/08, Bob Van Pelt <bvp6565 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Bob Van Pelt <bvp6565 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail Gun
> To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum" <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
> Date: Thursday, July 17, 2008, 9:48 AM
> The Cheyenne Tail Turrent became the standard on B-17Gs, not
> sure what Production Block.  There was a perforated bar by
> the "domed window" that was a defroster, above
> which was the optical gun sight. Between the gun sight and
> the gunner was a thick pane of bullet resistant glass which
> gave the Plexi a"greenish" tint. The Cheyenne
> turret, is named for the facility that made the first
> installations of this turret. The older tail guns used a
> ring and bead sight and had limited range of motion. I have
> not been able to find if the weapons were fired by hand or
> if they were powered like the Bendix Chin Turrent.  Any
> tail gunners out there?
> Bob Van Pelt
> 
> 
> --- On Wed, 7/16/08, bill runnels
> <billrunnels at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> From: bill runnels <billrunnels at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Tail Gun
> To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum"
> <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 6:20 PM
> 
> Hi Maurice,
>  
> In the G model (B-17) the navigators table was on the left
> side as you face the
> nose.
> 
> --- On Wed, 7/16/08, Maurice Paulk
> <mjpmtmanenterprises at cccusa.net>
> wrote:
> 
> From: Maurice Paulk <mjpmtmanenterprises at cccusa.net>
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Tail Gun
> To: 303rd-talk at 303rdbga.com
> Date: Wednesday, July 16, 2008, 12:06 PM
> 
> July 4, 5, & 6th "Sentimental Journey was in Grand
> Island NE [departed
> for Kansas noon the 7th.]
> I attended 5th & 6th. Took my scrap book which included
>  'Continental
> express" photos from the nose.
> [Koln Cathedral - Essen Works - bridge near Koln & Arch
> of Triumph] The
> female Loadmaster was quite 
> intrigued.
> 
> When I arrived about 1 PM They had made 5 flights [@
> $425/person] with 6 to a
> flight. Ask her if she 
> would like to take a ride. Told her I had flown in three.
> First one was Black
> Diamond, I think  was 
> an F. Wish I had remembered to check out the other two. My
> wife thought that a
> bit much. 
> 
> One thing has puzzled me!!! Did any of the G's have
> Cheyenne tail
> turrets???? The only ones I 
> remember is the small thick rectangle window. Surely I
> would have remembered
> seeing the 
> "picture window" of the Cheyenne!!! According to
> the picture in the
> "magazine" the wrap-around 
> "screen" would have been at least 25 inchs wide.
> [IF the human head
> was at least 8" across.]
> P.S.--The head room was less than I
> remember!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tried to
> enter the door but my 
> legs & back refused to cooperate. They were going to
> give me a free walk
> through.
> 
> Bill Runnels----I remember the navigators table as on the
> right side. The
> "magazine" [I think] says 
> left side]
> 
> Memories are fine!! But now my memory is tricky!!
> 
> Maurice
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