[303rd-Talk] Re: 303rd-Talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 4
Gordon Walker
gskywalkers at citlink.net
Thu Jan 24 15:16:57 MST 2008
Thanks for all the replies. This brings up another question for me. The B26's and the fighter aircraft all seemed to be part of the 9th Airforce with different bomber groups and fighter groups and airfield locations. Is that correct? And the fighter groups also had to meet up with the B-17 Bomber Groups during this massive formation assembly. It's just mind boggling to imagine all the planning needed to get that many aircraft in close proximity of one another all at the same time.
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Subject: 303rd-Talk Digest, Vol 14, Issue 4
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Assembling 1200 B-17's each day (Gordon Walker)
2. Re: General Question (Gordon Walker)
3. Re: Re: General Question (John Jenkins)
4. Re: Re: General Question (John Mcenaney)
5. Re: Re: General Question (bill runnels)
6. RE: Re: General Question (Kyle Thomas)
7. RE: Re: General Question (harold susskind)
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 21:51:52 -0800
From: "Gordon Walker" <gskywalkers at citlink.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Assembling 1200 B-17's each day
To: <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <001601c85a5f$64547a30$03fea8c0 at myroom>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Thanks much for that explanation Colonel. Getting all those bombers in the air and all headed in the same direction was quite a feat. I had always wondered how they did that. I have spent the last several months compiling data for a Calendar of all the Missions of the 8th Air Force from January 1, 1942 to May 7, 1945 and it was staggering to see missions day after day in 1944 that had 1000 bombers or more. Also very sad to see the number of aircraft losses during the peak of the war.
If anyone cares to have a look at the Calendar, you can see it at the following url:
http://www.scottylive.com/mac_calendar/index.html
There is not much activity in 1942 but as you get into 1943, you can begin to see the buildup of the 8th Air Force and by late 1944, early 1945, the total desctruction of the German forces on the ground and in the air.
Scotty Walker
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH
Leslie A. Lennox
Lt./Col. USAF(ret)
Of all the stories that have been written, and movies that have
been
shown, about the 8th Air Force, very little attention has been given to
what
was involved in assembling 1200 B-17's and B-24's each day, to get them in
formation to carry out a strike against Germany. Certainly showing bombers
under attack by fighters, or encountering heavy
flak, was a reality, and are interesting to watch. Also, stories about
some of
the rougher missions make interesting reading. But what was going on over
England, each morning, could get just as scary to the crews as the time
spent
over some of the targets. The planning, and coordination, that had to be
accomplished during the night, by the
operations planners of each Group, so that the crews could be briefed, was
unbelievable. If the planners had failed to do their jobs properly, there
would have been a free for all among Bomb Groups, in the skies over
England.
The rendezvous points, altitude, and times had to be precise, and known by
all
of the crews, before the Eighth Air Force could get in formation. The
success
of the planners, in accomplishing their mission, enabled the Eighth Air
Force
to become the most powerful air armada ever assembled. In my view, how
this
was accomplished is one of the major untold stories of the war.
I was a pilot in the 95th Bomb Group, in late 1944 and early
1945,
and what follows is a typical mission, as I remember it, from a crew
member's
perspective.
Early in the evening, our Squadron Operations would post the
names
of the crews that were scheduled to fly the following day. There were two
ways we could be notified if the Group had been alerted to fly. One was by
means of lights on the front of the orderly room, and the other with
raising
of colored flags. If a green light was on, the Group was alerted, if a red
light was on we would fly, and if a white light was on, the Group would
stand
down. The light was monitored frequently throughout the evening to learn
our
status and, normally, we would know before going to
bed if we would be flying the next day.
On the morning of a mission, the CQ (charge of quarters) would
awaken the crews about four or five o'clock, depending on takeoff time.
The
questions we always asked were, "What is the fuel load?" and, "What is the
bomb
load?" If his answer was,
" full Tokyo tanks," we knew we would be going deep into Germany.
Shortly
after being awakened, "6-by" trucks would start shuttling us to the mess
hall.
We always had all the fresh eggs we could eat, when flying a mission.
After
breakfast, the trucks
carried us to the briefing room. All of the crew members attended the
main
briefing, and then the Navigators, Bombardiers and Radio operators went to
a
specialized briefing. At the main briefing, in addition to the target
information--anti-aircraft
guns, fighter escort and route in--we received a sheet showing our
location in
the formation, the call signs for the day and all the information we would
need to assemble our Group and get into the bomber stream.
After briefing, we got into our flight gear, drew our
parachutes
and loaded onto the trucks for a ride to our plane. We were now guided by
the
time on our daily briefing sheet. We started engines at a given time and
watched for the airplane we would be flying in formation with to taxi past,
then we would taxi behind him. We were following
strict radio silence.
We were now parked, nose to tail around the perimeter, on both
sides
of the active runway, and extremely vulnerable to a fighter strafing
attack.
At the designated takeoff time, a green flare would be fired and takeoff
would
begin. Every thirty seconds an airplane started takeoff roll. We were
lined
up on the perimeter so that the 12 airplanes of the high squadron would
take
off first, followed by the lead and then the low squadron.
Each Group had a pattern for the airplanes to fly during climb
to
assembly altitude. Some would fly a triangle, some a rectangle and our
Group
flew a circle, using a "Buncher" (a low frequency radio station) which was
located on our station. The
patterns for each Group fit together like a jig saw puzzle.
Unfortunately,
strong winds aloft would destroy the integrity of the patterns, and there
would
be considerable over running of each other's patterns.
Many of our takeoffs were made before daylight, during the
winter of
'44 and '45, when I was there, so it was not uncommon to climb through
several
thousand feet of cloud overcast. Also it was not uncommon to experience
one or
two near misses while climbing through the clouds, although you would
never
see the other airplane. You knew you had just had a near miss, when
suddenly
the airplane would shake violently as it hit the prop wash of another
plane.
It was a wonderful feeling to break out on top, so you could watch for
other
planes, to keep from running into each other. To add to the congestion we
were
creating, the Royal Air Force Lancasters, Halifaxes, and Wimpys would be
returning from their night missions, and flying through our formations.
Needless to say, pilots had to keep their heads on a swivel and their eyes
out
of the cockpit.
After take off, the squadron lead would fire a flare every 30
seconds, so that we could keep him located and enable us to get into
formation
quicker. The color of our Group flare was red-green. The first thing you
would see, when breaking out of the clouds, was a sky filled with
pyrotechnics,
so you had to search the sky for the Group flare, which would identify the
lead
airplane of your Squadron. Once you had it located, you could adjust your
pattern to climb more quickly into formation with him. As each airplane
pulled
into formation, they would also fire a flare, with the lead plane, making
it
much easier for the following aircraft to keep him in sight. I think most
crew
members would probably agree that the pyrotechnic show, in the skies over
England, in the morning when the Eighth was assembling, was a rare sight to
behold.
The order of progression for assembling the Eighth Air Force was
to
first assemble the Flight elements, the Squadrons, the Groups ,the
Combat
wings, the Divisions and, finally, the Air Force.
As soon as the four Squadron elements were formed, the high, low
and
second elements would take up their positions on the lead element, to form
a
Squadron. When the three Squadrons had completed assembly, it was
necessary to
get into Group
formation. This was accomplished by having the three Squadrons arrive over
a
pre-selected fix at a precise time and heading. The high and low
Squadrons
were separated from the lead Squadron by 1000 feet and, after getting into
Group formation, they would maintain their positions by following the lead
Squadron.
Then it was necessary to get into the Combat Wing formation. We
were in the 13th Combat Wing, which consisted of three Bomb Groups: the
95th,
the 100th and the 390th . Whichever Group was leading the Wing that day,
would arrive over a pre-selected point, at a precise time and heading.
Thirty
seconds later, the second Group would pass that fix, followed by the third
Group, thirty seconds later. We were then in Combat Wing formation. The
navigators in the lead airplanes had a tremendous responsibility, to ensure
that the rendezvous times were strictly adhered to.
There were three Divisions in the Eighth, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
The
1st and 3rd Divisions consisted of B-17s only, and the 2nd Division was
B-24s.
The B-24s were faster than the B-17s, but the B-17s could fly higher,
therefore, the two were not compatible in formation. As a result the 1st
and
3rd Divisions would fly together and the 2nd Division would fly separately.
Now that the Groups were flying in Combat Wing formation, it was
necessary to assemble the Divisions. This was usually accomplished at the
"coast out"--a city on the coast, selected as the departure point "fix."
The
Group leader in each Combat Wing knew his assigned position in the
Division,
and the precise time that he should arrive
at the coast out departure point, to assume that position in the Division
formation. The lead Group in the Division, which had been selected to lead
the
Eighth on the mission, would be first over the departure fix. Thirty
seconds
after the last Group in the first Wing passed that point, the second Wing
would
fall in trail, and so on, until all Combat
Wings were flying in trail and the Division would be formed. One minute
later, the lead Group in the other Division would fly over that point, and
the
Combat Wings in that Division would follow the same procedure to get into
formation. When all of its Combat Wings were in trail, the Eighth Air Force
B-17 strike force was formed and on its way to the target. At the same time
the
2nd Division B-24s were assembling in a similar manner and also departing
to
their target.
Meanwhile, as the bombers were assembling for their mission,
pilots
from the Fighter Groups were being briefed on their day's mission.
Normally, 600 to 800 P-38's, P-47's, and P-51's would accompany the
bombers to
provide protection against enemy fighter attacks. Fighter cover was not
needed by the bombers until they were penetrating enemy territory,
therefore to
help conserve fuel. fighter takeoffs were planned to give them enough time
to
quickly assemble after takeoff, and climb on course up the bomber stream to
the
groups they would be covering. The combined strength of the fighters and
bombers brought the total number of aircraft participating in a mission to
approximately two thousand.
A major problem that presented itself, on each mission, was that
the
bomber stream was getting too stretched out. It was not uncommon for the
headlines in stateside newspapers--in trying to show the strength of our
Air
Force--to state that the first Group of bombers was bombing Berlin, while
the
last Group was still over the English Channel. It made great headlines but
was
a very undesirable situation. It meant that the Groups were out of
position,
and not keeping the proper separation.
Furthermore, it was almost impossible for them to catch up and get back
into
the desired formation.
This made the entire bomber stream more vulnerable to fighter attacks.
Finally, our planners figured out what we were doing wrong.
When
the first Group departed the coast out fix, it started its climb to what
would
be the bombing altitude. Then, as each succeeding Group departed that
fix,
it, too, would start
climbing. The problem with this procedure was that, as soon as the first
Group started its climb, its true airspeed would start to increase, and it
would encounter different wind velocities. Now it would start to pull
away
from the Group in back of it, and the "stretchout" of the bomber stream
would
begin. By the time the last Group had reached the coast out, to start its
climb, the first Group would be leveled off, with a true airspeed
approaching
250 miles per hour, and the bomber stream would be really stretching out.
The solution to this problem that had been frustrating the
Bomber
crews for so long was pretty simple. We would no longer start climbing at
the
coast out, but instead, at a designated time, all Groups would start
climbing,
irrespective of position. This meant that we all would have similar true
airspeeds and would be influenced by the same
winds aloft. That took care of the problem. It was still possible for a
Group to be out of position, because of poor timing, but the entire bomber
stream wouldn't get all stretched out.
When you consider the way our Air Traffic Control system
operates
today, and all the facilities at their disposal to guide each individual
airplane through the sky to ensure its safety, it's almost unbelievable
that we
were able to do what we did. To think of launching hundreds of airplanes,
in
a small airspace, many times in total darkness, loaded with bombs, with
complete radio silence, and no control from the ground, and
do it successfully day after day, with young air crews, with minimum
experience, is absolutely mind boggling.
The accomplishments of the Eighth Air Force have been and will
be
reviewed by historians from World War II on. There never will be another
air
armada to compare to it. I feel confident that they will never cease to be
amazed by our ability to assemble hundreds of heavy Bombers, under the
conditions we were confronting, into the devastating strike force we now
fondly
refer to as, "The Mighty Eighth."
LTG Brett Dula USAF ret forwarded:
THE MIGHTY EIGHTH
Leslie A. Lennox
Lt./Col. USAF(ret)
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 11:08:20 -0800
From: "Gordon Walker" <gskywalkers at citlink.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
To: <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <004601c85ebc$7d9860e0$03fea8c0 at myroom>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have a question about a picture I found on the net. The name on the image was "upcloseb17.jpg" but some things just don't look right to me for this to be a B-17......For one, the tail is not flat like in most images I have seen of the B17 and the wings seem up too high on the fuselage. Any ideas on if this is or is not a B17?
http://www.scottylive.com/ww2pics/upcloseb17.jpg
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 13:14:41 -0700
From: "John Jenkins" <j3367 at tularosa.net>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum" <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <000601c85ec5$c14d0e40$87a21242 at D1BB9W61>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
It looks like a Martin B-26 to me.
John I. Jenkins
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:16:04 -0800 (PST)
From: John Mcenaney <j4cubguy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <413812.90613.qm at web53203.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
it's a b-26 maruder, i think....
Gordon Walker <gskywalkers at citlink.net> wrote: I have a question about a picture I found on the net. The name on the image was "upcloseb17.jpg" but some things just don't look right to me for this to be a B-17......For one, the tail is not flat like in most images I have seen of the B17 and the wings seem up too high on the fuselage. Any ideas on if this is or is not a B17?
http://www.scottylive.com/ww2pics/upcloseb17.jpg
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Message: 5
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:28:31 -0800 (PST)
From: bill runnels <billrunnels at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <796968.71888.qm at web37009.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
It is without question the B-26 "Marauder". The radial engines underslung beneath the wings and the top turret back by the tail are dead give aways.
John Mcenaney <j4cubguy at yahoo.com> wrote: it's a b-26 maruder, i think....
Gordon Walker wrote: I have a question about a picture I found on the net. The name on the image was "upcloseb17.jpg" but some things just don't look right to me for this to be a B-17......For one, the tail is not flat like in most images I have seen of the B17 and the wings seem up too high on the fuselage. Any ideas on if this is or is not a B17?
http://www.scottylive.com/ww2pics/upcloseb17.jpg
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Message: 6
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:59:29 +0100
From: "Kyle Thomas" <thomas-kdja at t-online.de>
Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
To: "'303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum'" <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <1JI8ER-0kAqAq0 at fwd34.aul.t-online.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
That is a B-26.
Kyle Thomas
-----Original Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com [mailto:303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com]
On Behalf Of Gordon Walker
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:08 PM
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
I have a question about a picture I found on the net. The name on the image
was "upcloseb17.jpg" but some things just don't look right to me for this to
be a B-17......For one, the tail is not flat like in most images I have seen
of the B17 and the wings seem up too high on the fuselage. Any ideas on if
this is or is not a B17?
http://www.scottylive.com/ww2pics/upcloseb17.jpg
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:48:44 -0600
From: harold susskind <hasusskind at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdbg.com>
Message-ID: <BLU102-W50CC2558C543455F244EEC8380 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I have 7 minutes flying time in a B26 before we went through the fence
at Casablanca bound for a non-stop flight to Natal. Brazil. I WAS THE NAVIGATOR FOR A THREE PLANE FORMATION. I think our wingmen are still circling waiting for us to takeoff. Oh for the good old days with MATS. Hal Susskind
---------------------------------------
> From: thomas-kdja at t-online.de
> To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
> Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
> Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:59:29 +0100
>
> That is a B-26.
>
> Kyle Thomas
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com [mailto:303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com]
> On Behalf Of Gordon Walker
> Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 8:08 PM
> To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: General Question
>
> I have a question about a picture I found on the net. The name on the image
> was "upcloseb17.jpg" but some things just don't look right to me for this to
> be a B-17......For one, the tail is not flat like in most images I have seen
> of the B17 and the wings seem up too high on the fuselage. Any ideas on if
> this is or is not a B17?
>
> http://www.scottylive.com/ww2pics/upcloseb17.jpg
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