[303rd-Talk] Re:Cheviot Hills Crash Location
Gordon Walker
gskywalkers at citlink.net
Fri Jan 5 17:09:11 MST 2007
To Gary Moncur
Thanks for your help Gary. Hopefully we will hear what actually happened from Carol Kyle Sage.
Scotty
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: Cheviot Hill crash location (Gary Moncur)
2. COMBAT VOLUNTEER (Maurice Paulk)
3. RE: Re: Cheviot Hill crash location (harold susskind)
4. Re: Re: The Mighty Eighth (Leslie Jean Newell)
5. RE: Re: The Mighty Eighth (Tooley, Dave)
6. RE: Re: The Mighty Eighth (Bill Twomey)
7. RE: Re: The Mighty Eighth (bill runnels)
8. Re: Re: The Mighty Eighth (IBSPEC at aol.com)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 12:42:13 -0700
From: "Gary Moncur" <glm at 303rdBG.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cheviot Hill crash location
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Cc: Carol Sage <sage at ellijay.com>
Message-ID: <459E47A5.15440.4C27E111 at glm.303rdBG.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Hi Colin,
>
> Do you have any information as to the exact location of the crash in
> the Cheviot Hills? This is of particular interest to me as the town
> of Hawick, Scotland lies just to the north of the Cheviot Hills and
> Hawick was a major part of my story and was included in my book
> "MacGregor's War". I was told by some folks on a writers forum that I
> belong to that bombers were not likely to stray that far north on
> return from bombing missions in Germany.
>
> Scotty
I don't know the exact location, but Carol Kyle Sage does. Her dad
was the pilot. I'll copy this to her.
-- Gary Moncur
Webmaster & Director of Internet Operations
303rd Bomb Group (H) Association
http://www.303rdBG.com
http://www.B17Thunderbird.com
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 13:51:14 -0600
From: "Maurice Paulk" <mjpmtmanenterprises at cccusa.net>
Subject: [303rd-Talk] COMBAT VOLUNTEER
To: <303rd-talk at 303rdbga.com>
Message-ID: <001f01c73102$dc969460$7002000a at maurice3x29lmc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
----- Original Message -----
From: "bill runnels" To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum"
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
Bob, I personally do not know of a crewman that quit ...........................
Bill Runnels
Bombardier (B-17)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL---Think I responded once about this some time ago. We had new
men move into the supply barracks in Site #1 late in '43 or early '44.
Was never able to locate a lot of the office Supply personnel so I'm
guessing as to the time. We then got double bunks. 3-4 were assigned
to Supply office. I noticed that one Cpl wore gunner's wings on his
class A blouse. The wings later dissappeared. It was rumored that he
decided against combat. He is in the picture of the A/C Supply personnel
taken in front of the Supply warehouse.--dated May 15, 1944.
Maurice
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 14:30:44 -0600
From: "harold susskind" <hasusskind at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cheviot Hill crash location
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <BAY123-F259B041566B2D541502E08C8BF0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Isn't there a memorial at the site ofthe crash of the B-17 at the Cheviot.
When you flew practice missions over England especially above the overcast
you had tobe damn sure you kept up your navigating. Ask the navigator who
let down thru the overcast thinking he was over Molesworth only to see the
the Eiffel Tower starring him in the face after breaking thru the overcast.
Happy navigating. Hal Susskind - a navigator.
>From: "Gordon Walker" <gskywalkers at citlink.net>
>Reply-To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
>To: <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
>Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: Cheviot Hill crash location
>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 18:37:00 -0800
>
>Hi Colin,
>
>Do you have any information as to the exact location of the crash in the
>Cheviot Hills? This is of particular interest to me as the town of Hawick,
>Scotland lies just to the north of the Cheviot Hills and Hawick was a major
>part of my story and was included in my book "MacGregor's War". I was told
>by some folks on a writers forum that I belong to that bombers were not
>likely to stray that far north on return from bombing missions in Germany.
>
>Scotty
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: 303rd-talk-request at 303rdBG.com
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> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 11:00 AM
> Subject: 303rd-Talk Digest, Vol 2, Issue 4
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: tail turret (colin.waterworth)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 10:17:01 +0100
> From: "colin.waterworth" <colin.waterworth at btopenworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] tail turret
> To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum" <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
> Message-ID: <001e01c5999e$e17d60a0$f0198351 at tinypc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Dave
> Thanks for making contact , i will follow your suggestions and contact
> Boeing to see if they can help in any way , i will keep you all informed
>as
> to its progress...........colin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tooley, Dave" <Dave.Tooley at allstate.com>
> To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum" <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 7:46 PM
> Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] tail turret
>
>
> Colin,
> This is a great project! If this particular B017 was made by Boeing,
> you might be able to get what you need from them. I once sent a picture
> of a broken piece with a part # on it and they were able to tell me
> exactly what it was. I think I contacted the Boeing historian listed on
> their website.
>
> Keep us informed and provide pics if you can. Good luck!
>
> __________________________________________________
> Dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com
> [mailto:303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com] On Behalf Of colin.waterworth
> Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 2:24 AM
> To: 303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com
> Subject: [303rd-Talk] tail turret
>
> hi every one
> I am new to your group and i am hoping one of you can help?
> Some years ago i managed to obtain the tail turret remains of a 303BG
> B17G No 44-6504 , this aircraft crashed on top of the cheviot hill range
> which lies inbetween England and Scotland.This particular aircraft is
> well documented on the 303BG web page , i am now going to try and
> restore it to its former glory ,does any one have any drawings that i
> could purchase or borrow of this section of fuselage.
> When i say drawings i mean technical drawings which i can hopefully
> refabricate the missing parts and any other items which might help in
> its reconstruction.
> All of the upper window structure is missing and rear dome section is
> also missing.I have managed to find two .50cal mgs , two mg cradles ,two
> replica ammunition boxes , two lengths of ammunition tracking , two
> hundred rounds of dummy ammo ,oxygen regulaters ,oxygen gauges , rubber
> oxygen tubing , electrical rehostat controlers and one interior light.
> As you can see i nearly have all the internal fittings ,nows the time to
> restore the actual turret structure , hopefully this will be a lasting
> tribute to the crew of 44-6504 and to all those who served in the 303BG
> , many thanks.....colin
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:59:42 -0500
From: "Leslie Jean Newell" <ljnewell at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <BAY111-F31303ECB91B6FD249AB889D0BF0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
What I have gathered from the information in my father Richard M. Newell's
military packet, is that he joined (I assume he wasn't drafted) in the late
summer-early fall of 1942; was trained in the US for flying airplanes (I
suppose already for the Air Corps); then after his graduation in the summer
of 1944, it seems that he may have been recommended by his commanding
officer for being sent to England.
Leslie Jean Newell
Hendersonville, NC
From: bill runnels <billrunnels at yahoo.com>
Reply-To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 10:42:33 -0800 (PST)
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Bob, I personally do not know of a crewman that quit but I am sure it
happened with some degree of regularity. Generally, the crew would sense the
problem and either bring it to the attention of the pilot or suggest the
crew member go to the pilot and express his desire to quit. In either case,
the pilot had the authority to request a replacement and did. The last thing
any crew wanted was a member you could not depend up on to carry his share
of the load. Our bond was that of a team and that's the way we functioned.
Our pilot requested a replacement for one of our crew members and it was
honored. His personality simply did not fit with the rest of the crew.
Bill Runnels
Bombardier (B-17)
Bob Van Pelt <bvp6565 at yahoo.com> wrote:
I have heard all were volunteers, but that term is relative. Like Bill said,
the duty was glamorous and "flyboys" had a mystique about them. Flying, when
"volunteering" sure seemed better than living and eating ina foxhole or
serviing onboard an all male ship for months at a time.
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:17:08 -0600
From: "Tooley, Dave" <Dave.Tooley at allstate.com>
Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
To: "303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum" <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID:
<8623B6ACF67201449BC01C27EB50E3BC659678 at a0001-xpo0152-s.hodc.ad.allstate.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Scotty,
I have just finished John Steinbeck's (yes THE John S.) book Bombs Away.
It was a book written in 1942 to inform potential flyboys and their
families what to expect as a bomber crew member. Included cadet
selection, training, etc.
No one was drafted or enlisted to the Air Corps. You were drafted or
enlisted in the Army. Then you could take the tests to see if you
qualified for some position. You did not have to take the tests.
Of course, some guys wanted to go join the Air Corps, so they
'volunteered'. All that meant was that they asked to take the tests to
see where or if they fit in. But again they were first drafted or
enlisted in the Army.
Anyone not qualified for pilot, nav, bombardier, radio, engineer or
gunner, generally was 'returned' to the Army.
Hope I made sense.
__________________________________________________
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: 303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com
[mailto:303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Walker
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:05 AM
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
Hello All,
I just helped my wife unload the groceries from the car and on the front
seat, I noticed several packages for me, namely two books that I had
ordered re: WW2. One is "Time Out for War" by Ed C. Cury and the other,
"The Mighty Eighth" by Gerald Astor. Both of the books deal with the
8th Air Force and although I have not yet had time to read either, I did
manage to read the Preface of The Mighty Eighth and one of the very
first things that struck me was that it said all of those who flew
combat were volunteers. Can someone clarify that for me? Does this
mean just the pilots or did every member of the bomber crews volunteer?
Also, would I be correct in assuming that many were drafted into the
service and then volunteered for combat ?
Scotty
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:58:42 +0000
From: Bill Twomey <twomey45 at msn.com>
Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdbg.com>
Message-ID: <BAY126-W16658F3ED9E73B6F4CD7F0D9BF0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Great information. Very interesting.
I've watched the chain on this question closely.
Bill Twomey
> Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth> Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 15:17:08 -0600> From: Dave.Tooley at allstate.com> To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com> > Scotty,> I have just finished John Steinbeck's (yes THE John S.) book Bombs Away.> It was a book written in 1942 to inform potential flyboys and their> families what to expect as a bomber crew member. Included cadet> selection, training, etc. > > No one was drafted or enlisted to the Air Corps. You were drafted or> enlisted in the Army. Then you could take the tests to see if you> qualified for some position. You did not have to take the tests. > > Of course, some guys wanted to go join the Air Corps, so they> 'volunteered'. All that meant was that they asked to take the tests to> see where or if they fit in. But again they were first drafted or> enlisted in the Army. > > Anyone not qualified for pilot, nav, bombardier, radio, engineer or> gunner, generally was 'returned' to the Army.> > Hope I made sense. > > __________________________________________________> Dave > > -----Original Message-----> From: 303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com> [mailto:303rd-talk-bounces at 303rdBG.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Walker> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 12:05 AM> To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com> Subject: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth> > Hello All,> > I just helped my wife unload the groceries from the car and on the front> seat, I noticed several packages for me, namely two books that I had> ordered re: WW2. One is "Time Out for War" by Ed C. Cury and the other,> "The Mighty Eighth" by Gerald Astor. Both of the books deal with the> 8th Air Force and although I have not yet had time to read either, I did> manage to read the Preface of The Mighty Eighth and one of the very> first things that struck me was that it said all of those who flew> combat were volunteers. Can someone clarify that for me? Does this> mean just the pilots or did every member of the bomber crews volunteer?> Also, would I be correct in assuming that many were drafted into the> service and then volunteered for combat ?> > Scotty> _______________________________________________> 303rd-Talk mailing list> 303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com> http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk> _______________________________________________> 303rd-Talk mailing list> 303rd-Talk at 303rdBG.com> http://lists.303rdbg.com/mailman/listinfo/303rd-talk
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:13:59 -0800 (PST)
From: bill runnels <billrunnels at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
To: 303rd Bomb Group Talk Forum <303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com>
Message-ID: <20070105221359.90148.qmail at web37010.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi Dave,
There were exceptions. I took the tests before being sworn-in to the Army. My classification was "Aviation Cadet" from the very beginning.........Bill
"Tooley, Dave" <Dave.Tooley at allstate.com> wrote:
Scotty,
I have just finished John Steinbeck's (yes THE John S.) book Bombs Away.
It was a book written in 1942 to inform potential flyboys and their
families what to expect as a bomber crew member. Included cadet
selection, training, etc.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 17:21:35 EST
From: IBSPEC at aol.com
Subject: Re: [303rd-Talk] Re: The Mighty Eighth
To: 303rd-talk at 303rdBG.com
Message-ID: <c06.e092aca.32d0296f at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
i was aviation cadet from beginning and all tests taken before entyry
------------------------------
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